Back in 2009 Some Will Never Know still was a paper zine (and thus infinitely cooler), I was busy working on the second issue when I made some advertisements to place in fellow zinesters their zines. One of the names mentioned in those ads was René Natzel. It never happened though. But the last couple of weeks René and I have been mailing back and forth and finally made it happen. Here’s the result of a lengthy chat I had with René about World Collapse, True Blue, hardcore, life… and ninja’s.
René, it’s been years since I last interviewed you, so how are you doing? What’s happening in your life at the moment?
Yes, that’s right, it’s been a minute. I am very well, thank you. As for my personal status, I am surrounded by very good friends – some of which I unfortunately haven’t seen in a while –, an awesome family, keep healthy and fit on a mental and physical level, thus I am truly blessed and grateful. Thanks to my overall lifestyle and outlook on life, I am more in balance compared to 10 years ago, but keep striving for improvement every single day. Currently, I am undergoing a major change in my professional life, as I have just split from my old company to dive headfirst into a new challenge, which will be revealed shortly. As a band, we are gearing up for the next steps and we all can’t wait for them to unfold. I myself obtained an amazing new place here in Berlin the other week, so that still needs a bit of attention right now. Other than that, life’s a gift.
Sounds good man. A new place, exciting. You said you were more balanced than 10 years ago? Care to elaborate on that?
Yes I do. What I mean by that is that the combination of physical and mental training, combined with the right diet and quality time, has worked a great deal for me and my overall energy level. I’ve always kept myself busy in my professional and private life, moving forward constantly, chasing goals. I love challenge. Unfortunately, that would at times let me focus solely on a point in time in the future as opposed to living in the present moment. I have found the biggest source of energy and truth to be the here and now. This realization has become the place from which I operate most efficiently.
I have found the biggest source of energy and truth to be the here and now.
I can totally relate to that, keeping yourself busy and sometimes being too focused on a deadline or something instead of enjoying the moment. But the other thing you said ‘The biggest source of truth to be the here and now’. That’s interesting. How about ‘the heat of the moment’? Sometimes when you look back on a certain moment /situation it seems completely different from how you experienced it at that time.
That’s correct. But this phenomenon must have many different, very individual reasons. And truth is always a matter of perspective, thus time and space create a distance that naturally puts events in a different light. Looking back at things, the only thing we can do is interpret what’s done and not actually live it. And I guess that’s the reason for the differing perception.
Let’s get a bit more personal. You were raised in Germany and I always wonder this about people from Germany (I also asked Patrick about it when I interviewed him), was the war still of any influence to you while growing up in Germany?
Not in a direct way. My father was born right when WW II started, so he would sometimes tell me stories about what it was like to leave the house for pre-school in the morning, have an air raid, and then getting out of the bomb shelter to see your entire city in ruins. Or jumping in small alleys when fighter jets attack. Like myself, the german part of my family is from The Ruhrgebiet, the biggest industrial area in Germany. Due to the many coal mines, steel factories, and overall economic infrastructure, that area obviously was a main target. So, I am sure that the constant bombing definitely had a remaining influence on the people who lived there. Those first-hand stories from my father, grand mother, aunt and uncle made me very aware of the horrors of war and it’s absolute absurdity. But it also taught me what humans are capable of – to stick together in the darkest of times to then literally rise from the ashes and build an entire country anew. To never give up hope, no matter the circumstances and to always keep pushing for a better tomorrow. And I guess this goes for a lot of people from that generation. The only direct influence the war had on me were the super exciting playgrounds for me and my friends, playing in and exploring old bomb shelters when we were kids.
Good to hear that. And I can totally imagine that being awesome playgrounds. I used to run around playing soldier all the time. I really hope kids still do that. Something else. Personally I’m not religious. I don’t believe in a god but I’m always interested in other people’s opinions, their believes. Where do you stand spiritually?
I do believe that in essence we are all spiritual beings, having a temporary physical experience. Spiritually, scientifically and even culturally I am lead to the conclusion that there is an intelligent design through which everyone and everything must be connected with each other. Digging into Metaphysics and reading up on “Black Mass” and what in fact the universe is made of, breaking it down to the space between atoms, and considering the precise physical, chemical, and biological factors that make live on this planet, I find it hard to believe that the universe and solar systems are to be a mere coincidence. Thus, I believe that man can make his own destiny.
I follow you, until you go from it not being a coincidence meaning man can make their own destiny. I do think people create their own future (to a certain extend that is), but how does the universe being like it is proof that? Or did I make a link there you were not trying to make?
Everything and anything is made of the same matter. Every matter has an energy level and a frequency. The only variable is its density. The universal interconnectedness I stated above is physically the very foundation that allows us to make our own fate, and that by merely focusing on our energy and direction. Under different circumstances this wouldn’t be possible. And since I do not believe the universe and solar systems to be laid out by coincidence, given the spacial and thus energetic properties they have, it seems logical to me that the conditions at hand must be there for a reason. Just like anything in nature happens for a reason – scientifically and spiritually.
But it also taught me what humans are capable of – to stick together in the darkest of times to then literally rise from the ashes and build an entire country anew.
Ok, now I get what you’re trying to say. But let’s talk music. Somehow you got in touch with hardcore. How? And more importantly what made you stick around?
I grew up in a very musical household. My parents are cool and would always play very different types of records, from Soul to Rock’n’Roll to Pop to Jazz to Reggae to Hard Rock, etc.. Already in Kindergarten I got exposed to KISS and totally loved it. I was at my best friend’s place one time, and the girl looking after him played it – “KISS Alive II”. I was totally hooked and she made me a copy of the cassette. Throughout elementary school I got interested in Bands like Van Halen, Iron Maiden, Scorpions, and the likes. Since I was a BMX and Breakdance Kid at the time – and was already also into Hip-Hop –, I often hung out with people who were a little older than me. So, in the Summer between 4th. and 5th. grade, I saw some other way older guys building a half pipe next to my school. I was familiar with it due to BMXing, but they were skaters. I started talking to them and so me and a few of my friends ended up helping them build this thing. My dad would sometimes also come over after work to help out, and so after a while everybody knew everybody and was down with each other, despite the age gap. At the time, I had already checked out bands like Slayer, Metallica, Overkill, etc., thanks to my older brother who’s a Metal Head to this day, but got really hooked when those skaters would blast “their music”, while we were building the half pipe. I instantly fell in love with it, and couldn’t believe how raw and powerful it was. Best thing, those guys looked like me – no gimmicks, no spandex, just regular dudes. So, during that Summer, we all switched from BMX to Skateboarding, and I made the leap from Metal/Hard Rock to Punk and Hardcore. I asked some of the older guys if they could make me mix tapes, so I could check out the awesomeness, and I still remember my first tape: “Suicidal Tendencies – S/T”, “Wasted Youth – Reagan’s In”, “T.S.O.L. – Change Today”, and german Band “Tu-Do Hospital – Patients Of …”. The first ever Punk/HC record I bought, also during that Summer, was “Dead Kennedys – Bedtime For Democracy”. Then later that year followed “Cro-Mags – The Age Of Quarrel”, “Gang Green – Another Wasted Night”, “The Exploited – Troops Of Tomorrow”, “Circle Jerks – Wild In The Streets”. It was the Summer of 1986 and that was it for me! It made an even bigger impact on me than Hip-Hop. Why I stuck around? Because I love it. Simple as that. The reason why Punk/Hardcore came to live, and the ideals behind it have been great guidelines for me to live by, so Hardcore to me has never been limited to the music or the boundaries of the scene – much rather the opposite. It is something that can be applied to everyday life and the way you look at the world.
Man 1986… I was 1 back then… So when did you start your first band?
My first band I started in 1991, when I was 15. It was called “Strong Event” and we played a couple of shows in the area, before I went on to found “Inner X Circle / Spawn.” in 1992, start “True Blue” in 1997, and then “World Collapse” in 2002.
Let’s talk about your current band, World Collapse. After the release of the MCD there was complete silence surrounding the band. People were unable to reach you guys. There was the show you guys were supposed to play at Light The Fuse festival, but that never happened. What did happen during that time?
The line up at the time wasn’t solid and ideas of how to move forward differed from what I and Frank had in mind when starting this band. Thus we had to let Ric and Rean go in order to not compromise or change the course of World Collapse. They are both nice guys and talented musicians, but this band requires a unit of completely like-minded, equally visionary, and compassionate people. At that time, we knew that the only consequence was to cancel the shows that were booked and take a step back to reorganize.
The line up at the time wasn’t solid and ideas of how to move forward differed from what I and Frank had in mind when starting this band. Thus we had to let Ric and Rean go in order to not compromise or change the course of World Collapse.
That’s a shame, I really liked the guy’s voice, but I have to admit I had to check twice when I heard the new 7”. I wasn’t sure from what I was hearing, but you guys switched swingers. You also performed with a girl on vocals once, in Belgium. Wasn’t there, but heard it was good.
Yes. Like I have stated earlier, we had parted ways with our old singer Ric, and the bassist Rean a while ago, so obviously there needed to be others to fill that gap. The show you are referring to was amazing. We wanted to play it and had the idea to present something unique, other than merely replacing one singer with another. So, we asked our dear friend Cornelia Schmidt – now of “Kill Cat Kennedy” – to perform with us for this one show. At the show, to me it felt like this was something people did not expect, but they seemed very much into it.
Wish I could have seen that. The new singer is Simon Binkenborn, is he a proper part of the band (since only you and Frank are in the band pictures) and how did you end up with him?
Simon is an old buddy of Frank’s, a very nice person and talented singer. Prior to his stint with us, he sang in various Post-Core outfits and projects of other genres too. When we were in the final stages of demoing the material for our 7” “Frost/Casket”, we reached out to him to see if he’d be interested in tracking them with us. His tone color is what we wanted for those songs, so as a trained singer, it was easy for him to deliver just that in the studio. When writing songs, we always try to look at the grand scheme musically, and pay attention to not only song structures and arrangements, but textures and layers. Thus for now, the vocals can be viewed at like another instrument. Simon came in for the recording process but will not be performing with us live.
Interesting, so how’s that going to play out live then? Will someone else be singing? Or are you going to sample vocals?
For vocals, someone else will be performing with us. Right now, we have a good mix of analog and digital for the live presence.
Can you tell who’s going to sing for you guys yet, or is that something you’re still working on or don’t want to give away yet?
It’s going to be a friend of ours who’s also involved in another band, so I’d like to keep it concealed for the time being. Rehearsals are going very well though, so I am sure people who are into what we do are going to appreciate it.
Curious to see what you guys come up with. As for the new 7”, I really dig it, especially “Frost”. But how did other people react to it?
Thank you for the compliment – that is great to hear. We are more than pleased with the result ourselves and hope that people enjoy it likewise. As far as I know, reactions so far have been very positive, even though some had mentioned that “only 2 songs” were too little. They must have overlooked the other 2 that do not have the crunchy guitars.
For vocals, someone else will be performing with us. Right now, we have a good mix of analog and digital for the live presence.
Does that bother you? “A Flake Of Snow” has vocals, but both that song and “Preludium” (the name itself pretty much says so) do feel like interludes to me. That might be the ‘traditional verse / chorus / verse’ guy in me, but when I listen to the new 7” I don’t see myself going back to those two, while I did spend an hour with “Frost” on repeat 😉 “Deutschland, Deutschland, Into The Night” also had songs without crunchy guitars, but they felt more like ‘traditional’ songs if you still have any clue what I’m trying to say haha.
Yes of course, I totally get your point. And no, it does not bother me at all. There are other listeners that prefer the more electronic side of World Collapse, so it’s nicely evened out. As for “Preludium”, it indeed is the foreplay to “Casket”. Much like it is done in classical music where it is more than just an intro but rather a track on it’s own that references the main theme – in this context it’s the harmony of “Casket”. “A Flake Of Snow” is the transitional element between the 2 faster tracks, representing innocence at the beginning of modernism. “Deutschland, Deutschland …” had a different dynamic, therefore the electronic-based songs had to be arranged in a fashion that is more in the vein of the song structure you described. Both are great, but have to be looked at in their overall context.
Don’t get me wrong, those tracks totally feel right at home on the new 7”. Makes perfect sense indeed, it’s just that I kinda understand what those people meant with “only 2 songs”. So what are the plans for the band? Can we expect some shows again?
Yes, shows and new recorded material. Right now, our focus is the shows to back up the release on Reaper Records, but new material will follow next year.
Sounds good. Curious to see what you will come up with next. And are you guys going to tour or will it be individual shows here and there? Should people get in touch with you to book you?
For the shows that we played, we always presented a holistic approach regarding sounds, song selection, visuality, etc.. Currently, we are working on the best possible way to present World Collapse in its entirety. That will determine if we’ll do a full tour or play single shows. For now, we are open to any idea and would be happy to discuss possibilities with anybody.
So if you’re reading this and putting up shows, book them some shows in or close to the Netherlands people. Thanks 😉 – Pim
Church Of The Shadow. Enlighten me.
#churchoftheshadow is the intellectual intersection of an international group of artists and creatives World Collapse is a part of. It serves as a means for discussion and exchange about the present, and can be perceived as an extension of what each member does in his individual field.
Currently, we are working on the best possible way to present World Collapse in its entirety. That will determine if we’ll do a full tour or play single shows.
You guys dedicated the previous MCD to “true hardcore”. What would be your definition of that? I mean, I’ve heard so many different takes and views on it.
Hardore/Punk, it’s values and ethics go beyond a preconceived chord progression, looks, race, sexual orientation, gender, age, etc.. Our movement has started out as an alternative. An alternative culture for everyone who naturally was cast out of the mainstream world and the rules society had set up. Next to the music, it was the freedom, mutual respect for each other and sense of unity that initially attracted me to this scene when I got into it at a very early age of 10. The different forms of expression were not only tolerated they were celebrated, and originality was a demand. The Clash and Bad Brains brought reggae and dub to the table, Murphy’s Law and Operation Ivy brought ska, Suicidal Tendencies and Cro-Mags had a heavy metallic edge, Leeway or The Icemen rhythmically often played hip-hop-influenced, The Damned, T.S.O.L. or Sub-Zero partially used keyboards and had a darker aura, Descendents and Agent Orange sounded Pop, Social Distortion flirted with rockabilly. And the list goes on. The reason why Hardcore/Punk exists is because this is the alternative draft to the values, views and antics cultivated in the mainstream world. This is how we grew up, these are our roots. Watching more conservative and narrow-minded ideas trickle into the scene, which by the way should stay in the country club rather than in counter culture, we felt the need to use this expression.
While I have to admit there are plenty of bands I can’t get into myself that label themselves hardcore I have to agree with you, to me hardcore is more a state of mind, a mindset than the actual music.
The visual aspect is important to World Collapse, how much direction did you give Stahl R for the design? And was it hard for you to let it go and let someone else do the visuals for once?
World Collapse is a tight unit that pays attention to every detail and aspect of our artistic expression. So of course the visual aspect has always been very important to us, as it is another means of communication. We deliberately decided very early in the process to team up with Tobias Röttger of Berlin graphic design studio “Stahl R”. First of all, Tobias is not only a friend of mine, but more so an extremely talented, intelligent, witty interdisciplinary art director, designer and illustrator. Prior to the new visual identity for World Collapse, we have realized many different projects together, so it was an obvious choice to ask him, and as always great pleasure and a lot of fun working with him. So, for me it was not hard at all to see Tobias take the reins regarding the visuals. Obviously, we gave him a proper briefing and had a few meetings before and during the making, mainly discussing the overall feel of it as opposed to getting lost in details at that point. That is why we’ve worked with him, otherwise we could have done it ourselves.
Ah, I didn’t knew you worked with him before. I was just thinking about this, I know I would have a hard time giving up that control (although in the end you always have the final say of course) to a complete stranger. But that clearly isn’t the case. Since we’re talking about design, what happened to givemedrugs.com?
“Givemedrugs” was the moniker under which Frank and I have done most of the design and video work for some of our friends’ bands. Next to production, and song writing, we still do that from time to time but have dropped the name.
Aah yes, videos. I remember a Born From Pain video, some World Collapse videos. Any others? What’s the last production video you did? Aside from the World Collapse one (if you guys did that one?)?
Due to our jobs in the Fashion- and Advertising industry, Frank and I are very busy, so besides World Collapse and our involvement with Church Of The Shadow, the last HC project we’ve worked on was Born From Pain’s “The New Future”. As always a pleasure working with the guys, our assignment was to develop the visual identity for the release, musical outlines and co-production, as well as video concept and production. It was shot and edited by my friend TONE from New York, the set was built by my brother Roberto Cuellar – who also built the set for the “Frost”-video –, and the entire production, from first treatment to building the set to shooting the last frame, was done within 48 hours.
The reason why Hardcore/Punk exists is because this is the alternative draft to the values, views and antics cultivated in the mainstream world. This is how we grew up, these are our roots. Watching more conservative and narrow-minded ideas trickle into the scene, which by the way should stay in the country club rather than in counter culture, we felt the need to use this expression.
While talking about Born From Pain, you were also involved with the latest Born From Pain record right?
Born From Pain are a great band and good friends of ours, and we’ve been working with them for every record since “Sands Of Time”, doing different things. As you may know, in the 90’s Rob and I were in a band together called “Feeding The Fire” – we’ve been friends since I was 14 years old. Besides that, on the musical end we also co-produced a few tracks for Terror, which was a lot of fun too.
I didn’t know about the Terror tracks you co-produced, I have to admit I’m not listening to a whole lot of Terror these days. I did know about “Feeding The Fire” though. Back to World Collapse. It’s a band you either love or hate, or so it seems. Why do you think you guys get such strong reactions to the band?
I think it has something to do with the fact that we have never cared what other people say or think about us, and have always done our own thing – regardless of any “modern day HC formulas”, as I mentioned earlier. We know who we are as individuals and will preserve the right to always do as we please. That is the whole point of self expression. Maybe that’s too hard for some people to understand. And if people don’t understand something, they at times tend to overreact. That’s normal.
People are still talking about True Blue, your previous band. When I talked to Patrick (Kitzel – Reaper Records) about the band he told me he was kinda bummed about the fact people were more into True Blue now than when you guys were around. What’s your take on that?
It does not bother me or matter at all. When I started True Blue in my bedroom with Patrick, he and I never intended to do it for anybody but ourselves and a few of our friends. Those who have witnessed it hopefully had a good time, everyone else got to enjoy the recordings and footage afterwards. Either way it’s cool. I do believe that what happened was unfortunately pretty characteristic for the time and scene in general. Much of what I previously said regarding “true hardcore” and the “love it or hate it band” was basically on the agenda for True Blue as well: There are leaders and there are followers. We chose to not follow anyone. To me it seems like we set something in motion that later on received more appreciation, as you would see more and more bands draw their influences from True Blue and our take on things, which I think is actually nice to notice.
Yeah you guys are still influencing bands for sure. Is that demo 7” or discography LP on Reaper actually going to happen one day hehe?
I cannot predict the future, but I can tell you that the True Blue demo 7” release on Reaper Records is currently in the works.
Aah that’s good news. There was rumour of a True Blue demo of “On The Attack”, can you confirm that? Are there any (other) unreleased True Blue recordings in the vault?
There is no such thing as a “On The Attack” demo by True Blue. What we do have are rehearsal trackings of the material we wrote after “The Ice”. Some of those songs we later used for our intermediate project named “Retaliation” featuring myself on drums, Frank on guitar, Patrick on vocals and Buske on bass. Maybe someday we’ll get together, record them and put them out.
We know who we are as individuals and will preserve the right to always do as we please. That is the whole point of self expression. Maybe that’s too hard for some people to understand. And if people don’t understand something, they at times tend to overreact. That’s normal.
Ah yeah. Retaliation I totally forgot about that. Why did that end? Or did it never really got started? Would be interesting to hear those tracks. Do those rehearsal tracks have vocals / are they properly recorded? Or is it more like boombox recordings?
It was always meant to be a project that would see the light of day when we all have the time for it. Some of the songs have vocals, like “Death By My Side” or “Rise Before Our Time”, others have lyrics that are yet not put to vocal lines. The rehearsal trackings are digital, but they are what they are – rehearsals.
And how about World Collapse recordings? Did you guys ever record anything that you didn’t release?
No. All of the proper recordings we have always released. Of course, we have plenty of demos that are either in the works or not good enough to see the light of day as a legit output.
And while we’re talking about Reaper releases that never came to be (yet), what happened to the World Collapse 3 x 7” set? That sounded wild.
Yes, the idea we all still stand behind. All of us are music lovers and appreciate a good release, packaging and quality. So, with our own band we make sure to always put out stuff that we and others can enjoy to the fullest. The 3 x 7” has not seen the light of day yet, basically because we decided to push the “Frost / Casket” release first.
Good to hear that. So many possibilities design wise with a set like that too.
Looking back at everything you’ve done so far. At the point you’re at in your life right now. Any regrets? Things you wish you could have done differently if you had the chance now?
No regrets! Everything I have done I did to my best knowledge and ability, so there is nothing to regret. Of course, in hindsight there are things that I might do differently now, because we all evolve, broaden our horizons, rise our spirits and therefore may choose another option. But the present moment is all we have, so even thinking about stuff like that seems pointless to me.
So I guess I don’t have to ask the “Where do you see yourself in 25 years from now?” question either right?
Well, to me there is a difference between having a clear vision of your future on the one hand, and neglecting the present moment on the other. You can be present in each moment and still have a firm vision of what you want out of life. I believe it’s crucial to have a profound understanding of what it is you want to do with your life and where you are headed, otherwise I am sure this journey won’t be the most satisfying experience. In 25 years from now, I see myself as a further advanced version of myself. On all levels of my life.
I get what you’re saying, but that’s pretty general though, any goals in particular you want to achieve?
I don’t know if that’s a general standpoint, as I notice a lot of people merely direct their concentration to the external rather than the internal development. What I mean is a place of sole energetic focus. Driving my dreams consciously towards their achievement and creating an organization that is there to serve the well being of this planet, its habitat and inhabitants. In which form or shape it’ll present itself I will yet have to see.
I believe it’s crucial to have a profound understanding of what it is you want to do with your life and where you are headed, otherwise I am sure this journey won’t be the most satisfying experience.
Something totally different. What’s on your current playlist? Anything we need to check out?
Of course, I recommend you check out the stuff I am currently listening to. I am going to point out the more recent stuff and not the old classics. There is this new band by Larry Susi of Sub-Zero and Breakdown called “Death White”, it’s great. More in the vein of his former band “Crusade”, but heavier on the electronic side. It features the keyboarder of “Cold Cave”, so let’s see what happens with them – sounds very promising. Then of course “Angel Dust” with my boy Justice from “Trapped Under Ice”. To me, one of the best releases this year! Raw HC/Punk, no labels no lies type of band. I love them. Next up is ‘Cupid Deluxe’ by “Blood Orange”. Amazing new record by an amazingly talented artist. Always on rotation are “Vatican Shadow”, “Take Offense”, “Picture Plane”, “Manipulate NYC”, “Flatbush Zombies”, “Youth Code”, “Turnstile”, etc.
Angel Dust. Heard a lot of people raving about them. I’m all for melody and ‘different’ stuff and I dig it musically, but the vocals and lyrics don’t really work for me. Oh well, we can’t all love the same thing. What I’ve heard from Turnstile sounded good and most of those other bands I’ll have to check out because I haven’t heard them yet. So let’s do some quick ones to close this off. Haven’t done something like this in ages. Do explain em though:
Bad Brains VS Cro Mags
I love them both, and both bands play a very important role in my life. But I will have to go with Bad Brains. Because no Bad Brains, no Cro-Mags.
The Icemen VS Leeway
The Icemen. I do love both bands, but to me The Icemen were more compact and raw in a way. They put another important element over their entity which is atmosphere, and thus showed the darker sides of life. To me, their music and lyrics can be equally applicable to everyday life as well as take you to other worlds. I love them.
Pre-internet days VS these days
Today, definitely. Life is constant change and evolution, so I suggest everyone to get with the program. The internet has become a new infrastructure for this world. It’s still in its starting phase, so I am eager to see what will become of it.
Being deaf / being blind
Neither of course. Health is a gift and our senses help us navigate. To lose one or more doesn’t seem great to me. But to answer your question, I can only guess that being blind and still being able to hear would be the lesser evil to me.
Music VS fashion
Music! There is no doubt about it. It’s the universal language and vehicle through the roughest and most joyful of times. I work in the Fashion industry, but have always looked at it from a style perspective. For style is the extension of who you are, Fashion is only a fad.
Ninja VS pirate. No pressure, but the correct answer is ninja.
Ninjas are great but my answer is Pirate. Why? Because Pirates are free spirits who travel the world and do as they please … haha.
You just think that, because you never see a ninja. But if they decide the party’s over, the party’s over… Wrong answer René. Wrong answer…
I guess that’s it René, I’m all out of questions. Anything you want to get off your chest yourself?
Pim, thank you so much for this interview and your support over the years. We totally appreciate it and don’t take any of this for granted. Thank you. Life’s a gift and time is the only material it’s made of. Where there is light, there is shadow. Ende der Durchsage.
What a great interview!